Hilathic's 2e conversion

[Stix]

How would you make Hilathic in 2e? Mage/Thief? Bard?

[hilathic]

Excellent question. Let me think on this.

[hilathic]

I'd go bard. Also will you allow dual classing for nonhumans?

[Stix]

Jul 11, 2008 18:37:22 GMT -5 hilathic said:

I'd go bard. Also will you allow dual classing for nonhumans?

I plan to allow characters of any race to choose either multiclassing or dual-classing.

[Stix]

2e XP: 35500

Suggestions for class possibilities:

• Single-classed Bard 6
  
• Dual-classed Bard 2-5, Wizard 5

[hilathic]

Is there anyway that I can get access to the wizard abilities and limitations that would actually work with my bard spells. I believe if I dual class and I take the wizard ability Specialty bonus it would only effect any spell I cast as a wizard. Basically I want to be a bard with a greater focus on using my harmonica to cast my spells, and focus on enchantment charm to give my opponents minuses to save sv. my songs. I can do the first part of that easily with bard, but there are no real focus ability for songs other then taking a specialty class and seriously hampering a bards usefulness.

arph

[Stix]

Hilathic will also gain 5 CPs per level, so in the end he'll have up to 35 even without any flaws or class limitations. I'm assuming he'll go through at least 4th level as a Bard, so here's how I might play that:

5 CPs: Tiefling Bard level 1
+5 CPs: Bard level 2 -- 10 CPs
-10 CPs: Song specialization -- 0 CPs
+5 CPs: Bard level 3 -- 5 CPs
+5 CPs: Bard level 4 -- 10 CPs
-10 CPs: Instrumental spell casting -- 0 CPs

Song specialization would give you:

• A new Song-school spell at every new Bard spell level
  
• A bonus memorization slot for Song every spell level
  
• +15% learn Song spells, -15% all others
  
• Research Song spells as though they were 1 level lower
  
• Song spells require only verbal component (with Instrumental spell casting, you could use the harmonica instead)
  
• +1 vs. song spells, -1 to opponents' saves vs. song
  
• +1 vs. sound attacks
  

These bonuses and limitations apply only to Bard spells.

If you increase his Charisma to 17, you could then dual-class Hilathic into a Thaumaturge (Song Mage). If you went with Enchantment/Charm for your bardic specialization, Charisma 17 would also allow him to dual-class into Enchanter.

However, both of those options would cost you access to Invocation/Evocation and Necromancy (choosing Song would also cost you Divination). If you don't want to go that route, Instrumental spell casting is still great on its own.

[hilathic]

The problem is bards are extremely limited in their Limitations and Abilities, not what you would expect out of the jack of all trades class. Now I remember why I never used these rules in my realm, they make no sense for many classes. They should have rogue and wizard builds. Hell wizards can get these:

Combat bonus (8/10): For eight CPs, the wizard’s THAC0 advances as if he were a rogue of equal level. For 10 CPs, the wizard’s THAC0 advances as a priest’s.
Greater hit die (10/15/20): For 10 points, the wizard rolls d6 for hit points. For 15 points, the wizard rolls d8 for hit points. With the 20-point option, the wizard rolls d10 for hit points.

And Bards can't.

Instrument Casting is the only thing I wont from Bard so it makes this extremely difficult.

[Stix]

Jul 16, 2008 14:28:40 GMT -5 hilathic said:

The problem is bards are extremely limited in their Limitations and Abilities, not what you would expect out of the jack of all trades class. Now I remember why I never used these rules in my realm, they make no sense for many classes.

Bards don't have access to the same abilities or limitations as wizards. With all those options and the ability to advance twice as fast as a mage, they could outclass any wizard at his own game.

[hilathic]

I didn't say they should.

[hilathic]

You know I'm just trying to get my character build similar to what I had. No need to carry weapons or equipment yet still be versatile. It's just not possible with these abilities. Wizard would come closest but hilathic would have to be a singer instead of a pied piper.

[Stix]

Jul 16, 2008 14:45:43 GMT -5 hilathic said:

You know I'm just trying to get my character build similar to what I had. No need to carry weapons or equipment yet still be versatile. It's just not possible with these abilities. Wizard would come closest but hilathic would have to be a singer instead of a pied piper.

Oh, I see. Well, even a wizard or bard has to have a written form of his spells to study in order to access them, but you could largely make this work if you choose spells that aren't dependent on material components.

Jul 16, 2008 14:28:40 GMT -5 hilathic said:

The problem is bards are extremely limited in their Limitations and Abilities, not what you would expect out of the jack of all trades class. Now I remember why I never used these rules in my realm, they make no sense for many classes. They should have rogue and wizard builds. Hell wizards can get these:

Combat bonus (8/10): For eight CPs, the wizard’s THAC0 advances as if he were a rogue of equal level. For 10 CPs, the wizard’s THAC0 advances as a priest’s.
Greater hit die (10/15/20): For 10 points, the wizard rolls d6 for hit points. For 15 points, the wizard rolls d8 for hit points. With the 20-point option, the wizard rolls d10 for hit points.

And Bards can't.

Instrument Casting is the only thing I wont from Bard so it makes this extremely difficult.

Huh. I actually hadn't noticed that bards didn't have a combat or hit die improvement ability. Neither do thieves. I've fixed that.

What sort of abilities or limitations are you looking for that aren't available?

[hilathic]

Lets start with things I would like to see available to bards:

Casting time reduction (5): Wizard’s casting times are reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 1). Bard (10)CP

Extra bonus spell (10): If the Bonus Spell option was taken, the thaumaturge now receives a second bonus spell per spell level provided that the spell belongs to his chosen school. (only taken by a bard who is specialized obviously)

Intense magic (5): If a wizard casts a spell from his chosen school, the targets of that spell suffer a -1 saving throw penalty. This option may be purchased several times with a cumulative effect. (Bards can only take this once and need to be specialized obviously)

Limited magical item use (5+): The PC with this penalty refuses to use certain categories of magical items. The wizard gains 5 CPs for every category selected:

* potions, oils, and scrolls
* rings, rods, staves, wands, and miscellaneous items
* weapons and armor
(Everyone should have this in some form)

Reduced spell knowledge (7): The maximum number of spells of each level that the wizard may know is reduced to one-half normal, or 10 if his Intelligence is high enough to allow him to know all the available spells. For example, a wizard with an Intelligence of 16 may know up to 11 spells of each level, but with this limitation he may only know six spells of each level.

Reduced spell progression (15): A wizard with this restriction can memorize one less spell than normal at each level, so a 1st-level wizard is reduced from one spell in memory to none at all—a serious disadvantage for lower-level characters. (thought on this was for Bards who are looking to take more rogue like skills)

Talisman (8): The wizard’s magical power is inextricably linked with a single object or talisman. He must have this object on his person in order to cast spells. Typically, a talisman might be a crystal, a staff, an amulet, a ring, or some similar item. If the wizard’s talisman is destroyed, he can create a new one with 1d4 weeks of work in his laboratory or home base. (I just want this for the harmonica cause it fits hilathic )

Weapon restriction (3/5): For 3 points, the wizard may never have a weapon proficiency. For 5 points, the wizard can never wield a weapon even to save his life. This last restriction is not limited to weapons wholly created by the wizard’s spells such as ice knife. (For the bard lover not fighter)

Defensive bonus (10/15): An unarmored and unencumbered thief gains a +2 to his armor class. For 15 points, the thief receives a +3 bonus to AC.

Wow rogues really only have Abilities no limitations... I was looking to make more suggestions for bards who where looking for less Wizard and more rogue, but there really isn't a lot there. These aren't all things I would want but I'm kind of suprised they are not available to a bard. Bold are the ones I am looking to take.

[hilathic]

I also looked at Kits to solve my problem and Meistersinger came close as a piper class but it is tailored to Woodsman characters. I'd be willing to retool this kit to cater to city characters to fit Hilathic for you to approve as well.

And the things you suggested I had already planned to use. But I lose Invocation and with not using weapons I'd have no offense ability so the idea of gaining the - save to charm type spells.

[Stix]

The thing to take into account here is that the bard is a jack of all trades, but also a master of none. Allowing them the best stuff available to specialists (like Intense magic and the Extra bonus spell) leaves little reason to play a specialist. With 5000 XP, one could be a 3rd-level specialist (with 3d4 hit points) or a 4th-level bard (with 4d6 hit points, thieving skills, combat abilities, and all the same class and spellcasting abilities of the wizard). Bards already have the ability to specialize (and inflict a save penalty by consequence), and I feel like that suits them well enough.

I'm not sure about Casting time reduction. A bard's spells are less of a science than those of the wizard classes. I'll consider Reduced spell progression and Talisman, but spellcasting is only one of many abilities of the Bard, the number of CPs they grant is certain to come down if I include them. I'll give some thought to Weapon restriction, and will probably add Defensive bonus. Bards already have Reduced spell progression as an option.

I can't help but wonder why they didn't put any rogue limitations in S&P. I'll be adding Limited magical item use to the list, in the form you cited.

There's still a lot of offensive spellcasting ability to be had with access to Alteration.

I don't really see how Meistersinger can be changed for non-wilderness purposes without becoming an entirely different kit.

[hilathic]

Allowing them the best stuff available to specialists (like Intense magic and the Extra bonus spell) leaves little reason to play a specialist.

There are some extremely big differences in a Wizard Specialist and a bard specialist. First is the number of spells gained per level. Second is level 7, 8 and 9 spells. And there is a lot of really great Specialist skills that I didn't list because Specialists should have better access and I'll be honest I choose the 2 from the list that I wanted. But I can take no for an answer, but I'd still like to see something more added to the abilities and limitations. It just seems so bare bones.

I guess the way I am looking at this is I want to customize my bard to be more of a caster, and less focused on weapons and thievery. But the Skills and Powers are not versatile enough for me to do this like the 3.stix traits where. (more so your allowing 2 starting classes that was huge in letting me do what I wanted)

I don't really see how Meistersinger can be changed for non-wilderness purposes without becoming an entirely different kit.

It would be a different kit with a flare for city life. Bard kits are extremely under powered also. Never really played a bard before because I couldn't customize anything. Really trying to take this chance to make it right.

[hilathic]

NM I give up I will just make my plain jane bard, pick up may shortsword and run around with clothing like everyone else because belts chaff. I'd probably be more in the mood to debate this with you, but I'm still pissed about Noland turning the Arena into a rules lawyer game. He does this everytime I play with him. You should see him when he comes down to my house to play rifts. ARG I tell you ARG!

I just want to get back to posting instead of worrying about what my skills are.

[Stix]

Jul 16, 2008 21:08:26 GMT -5 hilathic said:

NM I give up I will just make my plain jane bard, pick up may shortsword and run around with clothing like everyone else because belts chaff. I'd probably be more in the mood to debate this with you, but I'm still pissed about Noland turning the Arena into a rules lawyer game. He does this everytime I play with him. You should see him when he comes down to my house to play rifts. ARG I tell you ARG!

I just want to get back to posting instead of worrying about what my skills are.

Ooh, Rifts makes me cringe even when I've played it with people who don't much care about the rules. Good setting, shame about the blindly-fumbling nightmare that is its system.

I totally understand that mentality, which is why I wanted to leave the base classes just as they are (minimizing confusion so the game can continue relatively seamlessly). You can take all the time you need to look things over. Most of the limitations are things that wouldn't be a problem to have been happening all along without having been noticed, and abilities can be bought at any level. If you change your mind anywhere down the line, I can work with it, no worries.

I saw the 2e sheet, looks good. Add on 25 more CPs for level, and one point toward an ability score.

[Stix]

To fill you in on the Bard changes real quick:

• Added Defensive bonus as is
  
• Added Limited magical item use as cited here
  
• Added Reduced spell knowledge as a 5-point limitation
  
• Added Bonded instrument (Talisman) as a 5-point limitation
  

[hilathic]

Ok I'm almost done just need to know what songs I'd have.