Hadrian's 2e conversion

[Stix]

2e XP: 72450

Here are my thoughts:

• Single-class Hadrian as a mage. Using the bonus CPs from single-classing as well as any received from flaws, buy one or more celestial powers to represent his "priestly" abilities, or buy sphere access as a wizard class feature and include divine spells in your spellbook.
  
• Dual-class Hadrian as a priest 5, wizard 6 or priest 4, wizard 7. Perhaps Hadrian was once devoted to Odin as a warlike priest before he'd seen too much bloodshed and threw in his lot with the Bleak Cabal. While he still venerates Odin, he no longer sees the same purpose in the fight (think of it like leaving the Aesir to join the Vanir). He's kept his spell and combat abilities, but is now learning the path of a mage, specialist, or thaumaturge of some sort.

Either of these sound like a possibility?

[exile]

Between the two options, I think I’m more partial to the second. I’ve had difficulty accepting that a person can simultaneously believe that all of creation is meaningless and yet also find solace in religion, and this comes despite the fact that Factol’s Manifesto assures me many clerics are drawn to the Bleak Cabal.

Favored Soul presented me with a unique approach to the divine character, one wherein Hadrian could accept the blessings of a higher power without violating his faction beliefs. He didn’t have to venerate a power, only accept that one had chosen to favor him unaccountably and thereby further both of their interests. A lapsed cleric who has retained enough of his power’s favor to invoke blessings might be a fair compromise. I’m not sure that I want to abandon the divine path altogether though, just have it advance more slowly.

When will you be posting the rules for cleric? And ultimately, when do you need a converted character sheet? Without a source book to refer to, I think this might take me a while.

Exile

[Stix]

Well, I'm not an expert on Norse myth, but what I know of it isn't really something one would take solace in. I actually find the idea of worshiping gods who are doomed to die -- and know it -- very in line with the Bleaker ideal (that part of it that sits so close to Doomguard ideology).

Dual-classing from priest into mage requires 15 Wisdom and 17 Intelligence. Being able to go back to priest increases the Wisdom requirement to 17. Any way the levels are sliced, Hadrian will have passed 4th, so he'll have another stat point coming to him.

I've put up Cleric. The base class is fairly mutable, so if you'd like to have input, here's the system for the class design:

All Clerics have major access to the All sphere, and 120 points of other spheres and abilities.

The following spheres are in Odin's portfolio. You can buy minor access to a major sphere for the lesser of the two costs.

Major: Animal (10) (5)
Major: Charm (10) (5)
Major: Combat (10) (5)
Major: Creation (10) (5)
Major: Divination (10) (5)
Major: Elemental (20) (8)
Major: Protection (10) (5)
Major: Summoning (10) (5)
Major: Sun (5) (3)
Major: War (5) (3)
Minor: Astral (3)
Minor: Guardian (3)
Minor: Healing (5)
Minor: Necromantic (5)
Minor: Plant (5)
Minor: Thought (5)
Minor: Travelers (3)
Minor: Wards (5)
Minor: Weather (5)

Legends and Lore and the Priest's Handbook show the following options for the Odin-priest's class abilities:

Combat bonus (20)
Hit point bonus (10)
Warrior-priest (10)
Communication (10)
Enrage Allies (10)
3rd: Immunity: Confusion/Feeblemind (15)
Turn Undead (10)
Weapon selection (10)
Remove Fear 3/day (18)
Suggestion 1/day (21)
5th level: Fear 2/day (24)
7th: Divination 1/day (16)

Faithful fanatic, Nearer my power to thee, and Sphere focus cannot be bought with the class' points.

[exile]

You raise a good point about Ragnarok, I'll give it some thought. A couple questions though:

1) When do you need this completed by?

2) Are these 120 points also used to purchase racial abilities?

3) If I dual class from Mage into Cleric, do I still get 120 points to allocate towards spheres etc?

4) Can the points be spent on other listed priestly abilities besides the ones specified for the clergy of Odin so long as they aren't specifically prohibited?

5) Do you get the stat point adjustment each time a class level reaches a multiple of four? Or when the highest level class reaches a multiple of four? Or when the total class levels combine to a multiple of four?

6) The priest ability Armor Class Improvement is invalidated by wearing armor or items that replace armor such as bracers. What about spells that confer an armor class bonus?

Thats all I can think of for the moment.
Exile

[Stix]

Jul 16, 2008 15:58:07 GMT -5 exile said:

1) When do you need this completed by?

No real time frame, but the sooner, the better.

Jul 16, 2008 15:58:07 GMT -5 exile said:

2) Are these 120 points also used to purchase racial abilities?

3) If I dual class from Mage into Cleric, do I still get 120 points to allocate towards spheres etc?

This is the system I use for the construction of a priest class. Whatever we scheme up here will be the default setup; if there's another priest of Odin somewhere in the future, he'll get the exact same abilities. I just like your perspective as a player, and I think you'd have some great input in designing it, but I can take over that responsibility if you prefer.

Jul 16, 2008 15:58:07 GMT -5 exile said:

4) Can the points be spent on other listed priestly abilities besides the ones specified for the clergy of Odin so long as they aren't specifically prohibited?

As long as you meet the prereqs for them, yes.

Jul 16, 2008 15:58:07 GMT -5 exile said:

5) Do you get the stat point adjustment each time a class level reaches a multiple of four? Or when the highest level class reaches a multiple of four? Or when the total class levels combine to a multiple of four?

When the highest class level reaches a multiple of four.

Jul 16, 2008 15:58:07 GMT -5 exile said:

6) The priest ability Armor Class Improvement is invalidated by wearing armor or items that replace armor such as bracers. What about spells that confer an armor class bonus?

Damn. AC Improvement is one of those abilities I'd hoped to remove, but I wasn't paying attention, just copy/pasting. It's meant to be a monk-only ability, to go with that class' martial arts capabilities.

[exile]

Hey Stix,

Wraith sent me a pdf with the second edition rules. I'm slowly wading though it, and with any luck I'll start putting things down on paper this weekend. I need some help realizing an aspect of Hadrian's core concept that no longer seems possible under the older rule set. My vision for Hadrian has always been the front-line fighter as evidenced here, but one who shields himself in magic instead of mail.

In 3rd edition I could push Hadrian's AC up 15 points with ease. That put him on par defensively with a warrior in full plate and tower shield. Under second edition, most of the spells are absent, and the ones that do exist don't appear to stack. At best I can drop my AC 5 or 6 points.

I don't want to abandon my concept or switch to physical armor because its easier if at all possible. I'm hoping you know a way to work within the given rules? Now you see why I was asking about Improved Armor Class before.

Exile

[Stix]

There are spells that enhance the natural AC (Barkskin), and spells that act as or replace armor (Armor, Invisible Mail). To some extent, these are stackable.

For example, if Hadrian is a priest 5, wizard 5, he could cast Armor, lowering his AC to 6 (Armor is different in 2e; it has no time limit, but rather its own HP total, 8 + caster level, and takes damage when the caster does). Barkskin would improve his natural AC to 5.

In this case, take the better AC (5) and lower it by half the lesser (Armor provides a 4-point AC bonus, so 2), for an AC of 3. Invisible Mail is the 3rd-level equivalent of Armor -- provides AC 3, and prevents 1 HP/level in melee before it's gone (you could have Armor cast as a backup, but it wouldn't affect this AC; Barkskin, however, would).

Shield is a different case. It outright replaces the target's AC (unless it's better than what the spell provides), so it doesn't stack with any of the other benefits. However, if you used Cat's Grace and got an AC adjustment from Dexterity, it would affect any one of these scenarios.

[exile]

A couple more questions for you:

1) I'm almost certain to have at least a 17 in each of Int and Wis. Does that mean I can add 10% to my experience to date in order to reflect the bonus from high principle attribute scores?

2) I've found the location in Skills and Powers where classes are dealt with. You seem to be using slightly different numbers, i.e. your clerics receive 120 points as opposed to 125, so I thought I'd ask how many points your Mages start with? I also just wanted to clarify something about mages. Am I reading this correctly in that Mages (using the normal character point value) must use all their starting character points just to be able to cast from every school while specialists automatically know how to cast from all unprohibited schools?

[Stix]

Jul 17, 2008 11:20:40 GMT -5 exile said:

1) I'm almost certain to have at least a 17 in each of Int and Wis. Does that mean I can add 10% to my experience to date in order to reflect the bonus from high principle attribute scores?

I've always felt that having a high stat is its own reward. It'd be a shame to penalize people for playing Fighters who favor mental faculties, or Mages with more Dexterity than Intelligence.

Jul 17, 2008 11:20:40 GMT -5 exile said:

2) I've found the location in Skills and Powers where classes are dealt with. You seem to be using slightly different numbers, i.e. your clerics receive 120 points as opposed to 125, so I thought I'd ask how many points your Mages start with? I also just wanted to clarify something about mages. Am I reading this correctly in that Mages (using the normal character point value) must use all their starting character points just to be able to cast from every school while specialists automatically know how to cast from all unprohibited schools?

I'm not actually having everyone build their own class, I just don't think the actual Cleric class as written makes any sense for most priesthoods. Mages and Specialists are as presented in the PHB or Spells & Magic. You can then buy additional abilities with your starting CPs or those you earn with level.

All Priests have major access to the All sphere, which costs 5 points.

[Stix]

Here's the Legends & Lore priesthood of Odin:

Combat bonus (20)
Hit point bonus (10)
Turn Undead (10)
Weapon selection (10)

Major: Animal (10)
Major: Combat (10)
Major: Divination (10)
Major: Elemental (20)
Major: Protection (10)
Major: Summoning (10)

"To be a priest of Odin, one must be a chieftain of a tribe. Odin’s priests must like fighting," to cite L&L. Kinda sounds like it was written by a ten-year-old, so I throw that bit out.

We're moving in the next two weeks; while I was shuffling things around, I found an old priesthood of Odin that I designed for a tabletop game the better part of a decade ago. It looks like this:

Warrior-priest (10)
Weapon selection (10)
7th: Divination 1/day (16)

Major: Combat (10)
Major: Creation (10)
Major: Divination (10)
Major: Protection (10)
Major: Summoning (10)
Major: War (5)

Minor: Animal (5)
Minor: Astral (3)
Minor: Elemental (8)
Minor: Healing (5)
Minor: Necromantic (5)
Minor: Travelers (3)

Thought maybe these could give you some ideas.

[exile]

Thanks Stix. I have a friend in from out of town this weekend, so it looks like I won't have as much time as I expected but I promise to get around to all of this before long.

Exile

[exile]

Hey Stix,

I've finally been able to give the class prototype some consideration and review my character options. I should preface this by first asking whether you are asking me to design a standard template for all other Priest's of Odin to adopt, or simply one to reflect Hadrian's personal relationship with his power? What follows is more along the lines of Hadrian's unique position within the clergy of Odin, less the divine champion than the scholarly mystic. Its fairly similar to your example with a few substitutions.

Hit Point Bonus - 10
Weapon Selection - 10

Major Sphere Access:
Combat - Major (10)
Divination - Major (10)
Elemental - Major (20)
Protection - Major (10)
Summoning - Major (10)
Sun - Major (5)
War - Major (5)

Minor Sphere Access:
Animal - Minor (5)
Astral - Minor (3)
Guardian - Minor (3)
Healing - Minor (5)
Necromantic - Minor (5)
Plant - Minor (3)
Travelers - Minor (3)

Total from spheres: 99

Remaining: 1 cp (I assume to be distributed to initial pool)

On a related note, can I take class restrictions as a way of boosting my starting CP pool? I don't see any listed for priest so far, but some of the other classes have received mention and I've found an online document that contains some.

Exile

[Stix]

Your total for spheres is 97 points, actually. Unfortunately, there are no more spheres to be picked up for 3 points; would you consider dropping Sun to minor and adding on minor access to Creation to round things out?

[exile]

The trouble with a couple of these spheres, creation and sun being great examples actually, are the limited number of spells pretaining to them. Minor access to sun and creation each allow 4 spells, 2 of which overlap. It feels a lot like throwing away character points. Charm might be a better option but I've deliberately strayed away from charm spells with Hadrian for moral reasons. I'll give it some thought.

Exile

[Stix]

If the Aesir can be said to have a creator-God, it's Odin -- he fashioned a world and all its denizens from Ymir's corpse. I ask you to consider it not from what spells the spheres grant, but what makes sense to the god. I'd consider Creation and Divination two spheres integral to the priesthood, with Combat and Protection close behind.

I fixed the Cleric entry by adding in its limitations. Maybe you could free up some CPs that way to cover the extra sphere?

[exile]

I've done some shuffling around, and I've included creation as a Major Sphere. I wanted to ask something though, because it seems I don't entirely understand how dual classing works. I've been treating it like 3rd edition where every level added improves upon the whole, but if the example of how hit dice are calculated shows anything, then I've been doing it wrong. How would Mage and Cleric stack for calculating THAC0 and saving throws?

Hit Point Bonus - 10
Weapon Selection - 10
Combat Bonus - 20
Weapon Selection (Melee Weapons only) – minus 5
Armor Restriction (unarmored) – minus 15

Major Sphere Access:
Combat - Major (10)
Creation – Major (10)
Divination - Major (10)
Elemental - Major (20)
Protection - Major (10)
War - Major (5)

Minor Sphere Access:
Animal - Minor (5)
Astral - Minor (3)
Guardian - Minor (3)
Healing - Minor (5)
Necromantic - Minor (5)
Plant - Minor (3)
Summoning - Minor (5)
Sun - Minor (3)
Travelers - Minor (3)

[Stix]

Here's the PHB text on dual-classing. It's not verbatim, since as written it was terrible (once you left a class you could never go back, you couldn't use the abilities of the old class until you achieved a higher level in your new class, and other awful restrictions that made humans totally worthless).

*****

Dual-Class Benefits and Restrictions
To be dual-classed, the character must have scores of 15 or more in the prime requisites of his first class and scores of 17 or more in the prime requisites of any classes he switches to. The character selects one class to begin his adventuring life. He can advance in this class as many levels as he desires before switching to another class; there is no cut-off point beyond which a character cannot switch. However, he must attain at least 2nd level in his current class before changing to another class. There is no limit to the number of classes a character can acquire, as long as he has the ability scores and wants to make the change. (Certain character classes have alignment restrictions that the character must meet, however.)

Any time after reaching 2nd level, a dual-classing character can enter a new character class, provided he has scores of 17 or better in the prime requisites of the new class. After switching to a new class, the character no longer earns experience points in his previous character class and he can no longer advance in level in that class. He starts over in a new class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous Hit Dice, hit points, and abilities. He gains the abilities, and must abide by all of the restrictions, of the new class. He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores. The character uses the best combat and saving throw values appropriate to his classes and levels.

This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. The character must still abide by all the restrictions of his classes. A dual-class fighter/mage, for example, cannot cast spells while wearing armor. He earns no additional Hit Dice or hit points while advancing in his new class until he reaches a higher level in his new class than his maximum level in any of his previous classes.

Tarus Blood-heart begins his career as a cleric with a Wisdom of 16. He rises to 3rd level and then decides to become a fighter, since his Strength is 17. He keeps his 14 hit points (rolled on 3d8), but in all other ways he is treated as a 1st-level fighter. Upon reaching 4th level, Tarus is allowed to roll 1d10 for additional hit points. He can now cast spells as a 3rd-level cleric and fight as a 4th-level fighter.

When a dual-class or multi-class character is struck by a level-draining creature, he first loses levels in the class in which he has advanced the highest. When his different classes are equal in level, the class level requiring the most experience points is lost first.

[exile]

Ok, looks like I'll have to make some changes to Hadrian then. I assume the rest is alright by you, since you didn't comment on it. I'm just going to make a little change:

Improved Hit Point Bonus - 15 instead of 10
Lesser Weapon Selection (Spears) - 5 instead of 10

This totals 120 cps, and unless you have any changes you'd like to make to it I'll work with what I've written. I might come back with more questions and/or suggestions once I have it all on paper, I'm having a tough time visualizing all of this in advance, but at least I have a structure to work with now. I hope I can have a working version of Hadrian by tonight. I've been reluctant to post in either of the threads where Hadrian is involved in combat until then.

Noah/Exile

[Stix]

The 10-point weapon selection is another thing I'd say should be built in for all priests of Odin (most of the Norse gods, really). If you were to pay for the boost with your 5 starting CPs, though, your breakdown by level would look like this:

5 CPs (Aasimar Priest)
+7: Int bonus -- 12 CPs
-5: Hit Point Bonus (improved to d12) -- 7 CPs
+5: Priest 2 -- 12 CPs
+1: Mage 2 -- 13 CPs
+5: Priest 3 -- 18 CPs
+1: Mage 3 -- 19 CPs
+5: Priest 4 -- 24 CPs
+1: Mage 4 -- 25 CPs
+5: Priest 5 -- 30 CPs
+1: Mage 5 -- 31 CPs
+5: Priest 6 -- 36 CPs
+1: Mage 6 -- 37 CPs

...which still leaves a lot of room to play with for improving proficiencies, buying new class features, and those sorts of things.

[Stix]

I'm not sure that I'm especially fond of either of the proposed substitutes for Diplomacy offered by Ned. I had a thought that I wanted to run by you though... when Hadrian was built martial arts styles had not yet been detailed in full. The concept of a warrior priest is consistent with a regimented discipline like that. Would it be permissible to rebuy my initial investment into Diplomacy plus five additional ranks as progression through a martial arts tree?7.0

It would take a significant restructuring, but it would be doable. Two WPs would have to be spent, the first for Basic Martial Arts, the second for The Way of Accomplishment (the only style that accommodates a spear). A third slot, WP or NWP, would have to be spent on "The Way of Accomplishment: Spears" if you plan to use the style while armed. On the upside, this then opens you to buying maneuvers with WPs or NWPs, and you get the benefit of the reduced AC without having to spend those WP slots on Single-Weapon Style.

It looks like Hadrian is two CPs over, so a bit of retooling would be an easy way to fix things. His earnings, by my count, are as follows:

5 CPs (Aasimar Priest)
+7: Int bonus -- 12 CPs
+5: Iron Weakness -- 17 CPs
+5: Priest 2 -- 22 CPs
+1: Mage 2 -- 23 CPs
+5: Priest 3 -- 28 CPs
+1: Mage 3 -- 29 CPs
+5: Priest 4 -- 34 CPs
+1: Mage 4 -- 35 CPs
+5: Priest 5 -- 40 CPs
+1: Mage 5 -- 41 CPs
+5: Priest 6 -- 46 CPs
+1: Mage 6 -- 47 CPs

It's one point fewer than what Hadrian currently has. Also, a WP for a non-warrior costs 3 CP (1 more than was spent for Longsword).

I hadn't noticed before look at his NWP list just now, but Hadrian also doesn't qualify for Planewalker Wizard -- it requires the two-slot Portal Feel proficiency. Might be something else to factor in if you plan to keep the kit.